Anglican Worship, a relic of the past?
One of my colleagues sent an email out today advertising the up coming Manu Rui training event in Christchurch.
One of his youth pastors replied as below. I include it as it raises some important issues, and I also include my response.
Thanks for your comments.
As the person who is running this event I thought I might have the right of reply.
I could argue with some of what you have said, but your main thrust which is that Anglican worship as it is currently offered is not very youth friendly is a given. I would suggest (from my experience of attending camps and youth events around the country) that the style of worship we offer is fairly standard, and not ecumenical, but pentecostal/charismatic in structure at least.
My concern with that is that it appeals to one group of young people, and that there are many other groups who are not drawn by the worship currently offered. In fact over 80% of young people in this country don’t go anywhere near anything we offer, including worship. We need a whole range of approaches to working with young people, and a whole range of worship events/styles for young people. That is what this weekend is about! I want to see a range of different styles of worship organised by and for young people. And to do that young people and youth leaders need support, help, and some tools.
This weekend is not about making Anglicans, or to help young people appreciate what Anglican Church currently offers. It is about offering a place to do some thinking about what the Church of 2000 years has understood worship to be, what the Bible might say about that and how the church has reinterpreted that in changing situations, especially the Anglican church (it is the church I belong to, know the most about, and pays me. It also, I believe have an amazing amount to offer young people and worship among young people, I think.) We also need to think about the context we are worshipping in, in this case with young people and youth culture. I have experienced some amazing worship organised by young people in Oxford England that was clearly Anglican, but engaged with the culture of those young people in a way I have never experienced in New Zealand. It was creative, profound, moving, informal, and squarely centered in the rave culture of those young people. I want to see young people and youth leaders equipped and encouraged to create worship for our context here in NZ. I hope it looks nothing like Joy, and nothing like what is mostly offered as youth worship here in NZ.
Being ecumenical doesn’t mean ditching what all the churches have done and just doing the same thing, but knowing enough about what all those churches have done and why, and reusing that in new and life giving ways. I hope Presbyterians offer their spiritual heritage, and Methodists. We could learn so much from them, and our worship would be so much the richer, and our young people would grow because of it. That would be truly ecumenical. But I can only do the Anglican bit.
In the end, I was young people to grow deeply in Christ, as part of Gods ongoing community, the church. Worship id centrally important to that. This weekend is designed to help us develop what we offer so that young people can develop and grow.
I don’t know about the church you talk about, but would be really interested to know what they are doing. I suspect we are not too far apart on this.
Thanks for your comments. I did not mean to go on so long. But you can see I am passionate about young people (rather than Anglican liturgy, which I mostly enjoy) I hope you come, and bring you challenges and questions, and keep me honest, and help us all learn and grow.
Peace
John Hebenton
One of his youth pastors replied as below. I include it as it raises some important issues, and I also include my response.
My kids would have no interest in this at all; theirMy response
focus is simply not on denominational breakdowns and focii. As a church we need
to focus on WHERE OUR KIDS ARE (ie not in Anglican churches) and visit there,
rather than trying to get kids to visit us (worship wise or
whatever). We've been around hundreds of years and kids have voted with
their feet.
Modern youth ministry is totally ecumenical
(ie easter camp, 82 youth groups), so this is not something I would spend time
on myself.
I agree there are treasures, and I personally value
aspects of Anglicanism, but not at a youth level. We struggle even
having "readings" (even in modern version); our kids want increasing
informality and less heritage. They collect the latter later in life, when
they have families.
The thinking coming out of the Lambeth Conf. (new wine
skins) is exciting (ala St Barnabbas UK, and is the direction we should be
exploring in worship for young people.
Thanks for your comments.
As the person who is running this event I thought I might have the right of reply.
I could argue with some of what you have said, but your main thrust which is that Anglican worship as it is currently offered is not very youth friendly is a given. I would suggest (from my experience of attending camps and youth events around the country) that the style of worship we offer is fairly standard, and not ecumenical, but pentecostal/charismatic in structure at least.
My concern with that is that it appeals to one group of young people, and that there are many other groups who are not drawn by the worship currently offered. In fact over 80% of young people in this country don’t go anywhere near anything we offer, including worship. We need a whole range of approaches to working with young people, and a whole range of worship events/styles for young people. That is what this weekend is about! I want to see a range of different styles of worship organised by and for young people. And to do that young people and youth leaders need support, help, and some tools.
This weekend is not about making Anglicans, or to help young people appreciate what Anglican Church currently offers. It is about offering a place to do some thinking about what the Church of 2000 years has understood worship to be, what the Bible might say about that and how the church has reinterpreted that in changing situations, especially the Anglican church (it is the church I belong to, know the most about, and pays me. It also, I believe have an amazing amount to offer young people and worship among young people, I think.) We also need to think about the context we are worshipping in, in this case with young people and youth culture. I have experienced some amazing worship organised by young people in Oxford England that was clearly Anglican, but engaged with the culture of those young people in a way I have never experienced in New Zealand. It was creative, profound, moving, informal, and squarely centered in the rave culture of those young people. I want to see young people and youth leaders equipped and encouraged to create worship for our context here in NZ. I hope it looks nothing like Joy, and nothing like what is mostly offered as youth worship here in NZ.
Being ecumenical doesn’t mean ditching what all the churches have done and just doing the same thing, but knowing enough about what all those churches have done and why, and reusing that in new and life giving ways. I hope Presbyterians offer their spiritual heritage, and Methodists. We could learn so much from them, and our worship would be so much the richer, and our young people would grow because of it. That would be truly ecumenical. But I can only do the Anglican bit.
In the end, I was young people to grow deeply in Christ, as part of Gods ongoing community, the church. Worship id centrally important to that. This weekend is designed to help us develop what we offer so that young people can develop and grow.
I don’t know about the church you talk about, but would be really interested to know what they are doing. I suspect we are not too far apart on this.
Thanks for your comments. I did not mean to go on so long. But you can see I am passionate about young people (rather than Anglican liturgy, which I mostly enjoy) I hope you come, and bring you challenges and questions, and keep me honest, and help us all learn and grow.
Peace
John Hebenton
Comments
"Most Anglican worship is boring to young people (and the rest of us)" = true statement
"Anglican worship has nothing to offer young people" = false statement
I'd primarily quarrel with the suggestion that kids want informality and less heritage. I left my evangelical protestant past, as a 21 year old, in large part because I wanted more formality and more heritage. Incidentally, our cathedral has a 15th century monastic chant service that's filled with 500 teenagers every Sunday. (And very few of those teenagers came willingly to the modern (if endearingly dorky) "U2charist"). The only other church in our diocese that is effectively reaching the 20s-30s crowd is Emerging, but is rooted firmly in Anglican liturgy expressed in modern forms.
My feeling is that youth (and the rest of us) do want less dry formality and less boring history lessons, and more connection with a relevant, active faith in a relevant, present God. Many might not want church at all, and we should face up to that and focus our mission accordingly, but for those that do, the key attraction has less to do with style than vitality.
I'd also ask as to the age of the person who made these comments, I'd say they don't sound like the words of a young person, more a parent.
As a young person in this church I find those stereotypes patronising. The reality is not that we want something new over something old, we want something we can understand, something we can connect with. The reason the tradition turns us off is that we often can't understand them, who can even name all those silly outfits the priests wear (ok I suppose you all can) but anyway, education is the key. This course looks an amazing opportunity to let young people unlock all that information, to learn and appreciate our heritage. And once you have that power you can shape and rebuild it to suit you context as we do at my church. It's not about what you do, but how you do it. Just look at all that goes with commercial packaging and globalisation. We have one of the best quality "products" on the market, just because it's not packaged well for the youth market, doesn't mean we should dismiss it and throw it away.
It's true we don't do well as a church, especially towards young people. But that’s primarily because they don't understand us.. Not because we are irrelevant.
If I lived anywhere near Christchurch I'd definitely be there.
You should name and shame the youth workers who think like this (If he is isn't pushing 50 or more and is Anglican I'd be surprised!!)
This disheartens me that there are other youth workers who just sell-out and throw away what some of us hold dear. We aren't a commercial church, that throws away everything we believe in to meet the massess. I have a belief, a tradition and a strong faith in the Anglican church. I believe it has everything to offer to young people. Our church can give them what they need, it shouldn't be cast aside to be what they want.
That our church has "youth pastors" like this is disgraceful. Sadely I have met several like this, mostly they have been baptist or methodist or presbatarian and usually 40 to 50. So in their lame attempt to be cool, hip and connect with young people they happily throw away all the Anglicanism. What we need is more young Anglican youth workers. You might say where are they ? Well after we sack all these old-as non-anglican youth workers and offer their jobs, I'm sure we'll find some to fill the gap. And as young anglican youth workers we can connect ourselves to other young people very easily without having to throw away our traditions as well.
Anyway hope it all goes well John, its tough work, but we all try our best.
I can't understand why they even stay. Surely they are able to go of their own freewill and join a church that better suits their needs. The only thing that I can think of that holds them back is the paycheck ... Oh. I see. Silly me.
That said, I do think the second commenter was on to something in suggesting that a big part of the issue is education in liturgy, because although Anglican worship (and particularly New Zealand Anglican worship, I say as an American Episcopalian) is rich with meaning, it is also generally inaccessable to an unchurched observer. We shouldn't throw out one or the other, but should be figuring out ways to 1. serve youth who aren't there on Sundays (re-emphasizing our Anglican parochial understanding of mission?) and 2. mine the depths of Anglican tradition in order to communicate what is beautiful, life-giving, and God-breathed.
Amen to Ben and his lament for the lack of young, faithful, qualified youth workers formed in an Anglican tradition. Is it really too much to ask for?! Here in Newcastle Diocese there are at least eight parishes looking to develop their youth ministry (two offering full stipends) but, due to this shameful lack of appropriate ministers (save for the hundreds of fresh faced missionaries from Sydney), the positions sit vacant and the Church is all the poorer for it. I see the Toru modules as an attempt to remedy this lapse in our church training and education, and pray it will do something to move our young leaders on from the unhelpful and distrustful self-perception we often harbour as a church with tradition and a heritage.
I also notice that what we (pakeha) usually offer up to our young people in terms of ‘youth worship’ is the traditional Pentecostal/charismatic experience, complete with the same tired songs and earnest lifting of hands. Is this because it has become safe and easy, like ‘404’ on a Sunday morning? Anglican worship, ancient and modern - neither is better or worse, but both stand alongside other traditions which coexist in a time-honoured, multicultural Church. It’s high time we moved on from safe and easy though…
WADE
I believe a good minister is akin to a good teacher, yeah the students should have fun, it should be interesting and they should connect with it. But if you have a teacher that throws out all the books, the history and tradition in favour of just giving us entertainment, where are all those students going to get in life. Yeah most students hate school, alot leave, but that is the fault not the fault of schooling in principle.
The Anglican Church has so much to offer, it has a deep and rich tradition that we can benefit so much from in our lives. We should never comprimise that to keep young people entertained, otherwise we need to find a new path. John makes some good points regarding putting it in context. Knowledge is so important. We can empower young people to have a greater understanding in God, why throw that opportunity aside in favour of just entertaining them. Imagine the uproar if we were hiring school teachers who worked like that.
I want to echo what the young person from Wellington says, and i say this as a baptist - what the heck are people doing working for a church and denomination that have no concern for forms and traditions of worship. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
Here I am, in Rotorua as part of the TORU Liturgy Module called Manu Rui, Introduction to Anglican Youth Worship ... one at which you are the main tutor.
There are a dozen young leaders here. It's been interesting for me to see their reaction to the material you've presented. The liturgies they've experienced so far have been diverse - Taize, Morning Prayer, and Maori prayer - and in my observation they've enjoyed and been taken in by them all.
Why? Because the liturgies have been explained, piece by piece. So we've all been able to enter in to these liturgies with full understanding, and give ourslves over to the purpose of liturgy - to worship and glorify God.
It seems that when you understand liturgies purpose, it doesn't really matter if it's contemporary or not. All that matters is that we can join as one and offer up praise to God.
This weekend convinces me even more about the poential of Anglican liturgy to speak to, to encourage, and to bless young people.
We don't need to go looking elswhere - what God has surrounded us with here is more than enough to bless us and keep us growing.
Oh, and by the way ... you're doing a great job teaching here, John. You, and Jocelyn Czerwonka, and Jo Keoghan, and Hirini Kaa. I'm enjoying this weekend immensely ...
... even if I am typing this while you're teachng! :)
great to re-read this post and it's comments. I am having this very conversation regarding our worship at E-Fest. Helpful stuff...
We would love to have you come and lead a workshop around the outcomes of your dissertation.
Wade